Friday
Sep302011
Etsy Ethics: I Stole This, Is That Okay?
I'm wicked into shiny things lately. And chevron stripes. And trays - everything should be on a tray. So when I saw this tray making the rounds on Pinterest I totally flipped out.
The cream and gold is just so lovely together. There's a homemade elegance to it and kind of a sophisticated disco feel, or something. I don't know, I just really love the thing. Unfortunately, it's a one of a kind from Etsy and it was sold this summer. Now I want to have an Etsy shop solely dedicated to my rip-off painted trays. That would be wrong, right?
Made in Sweden, $2.50. Awesome.
Viola!
Already gold!
tagged 
DIY, Trays, gold and cream in Made!
DIY, Trays, gold and cream in Made!
Reader Comments (16)
Hello! Saw you over at Design Sponge! I also made my own version this summer after discovering that they were sold out! Feel free to come check mine out - but yours are fantastic! I definitely want to do it again with gold paint this time around!!! So glad I'm not the only one raising these ethical Etsy questions!
Sarah,
Up in the Air Somewhere is not some faceless corporation; it's my wife Susan... Although she'd kill me for writing this, your blog bummed her out on a day when she otherwise was feeling great about being on DesignSponge.
Look, I would never discourage anyone from doing something creative. I think people should make DIY versions of things that they love, just to see how it's done. And quite honestly, sellers of derivative work don't keep Susan up at night.
But since you're starting a new business, I would like to offer Small Victories some free advice from Ben Syverson, not Susan or UIAS:
1. Generally, it's a bad idea to launch your business with a few blog posts detailing your plans to "rip off" another small business. People like authenticity, and they have access to Twitter.
2. The greatest feeling in the world is when you come up with a fresh idea, produce it, and it flourishes. By phoning in the idea, you're robbing yourself of the single best part of starting a business.
3. By pricing your work as you have, you're paying yourself less than minimum wage, and you've created the impression that your work is not worth much. You will get bored of spray painting things for $10. Especially when the Etsy seller who charges $5 comes along.
Finally, it seems your husband Matthew works for Zendesk? The company that just had a flip-out over Freshdesk, a perceived knock-off? As an aficionado of irony, I just had to double check.
Ben
Dear Ben,
I don't think any artist is a faceless corporation. I'm not sure why you would think I would. I'm not sure why you have made most of the assumptions that you have.
I don't have a business. The only thing we sell on Etsy are notebooks designed by Matthew. I sell a couple things in my tiny town at a store owned by friends. They were things I had on hand and didn't pay any money for. I'm happy to sell them for cheap. I don't plan on selling anything else or more of it.
I fell madly in love with your wife's tray. I think I was clear and exuberant about that and gave her all the credit in the world and was up front about how sad I was that I couldn't just purchase one. I was also inspired and applied her idea onto the material I had on hand. I didn't sell or try to sell the one cream and gold tray I made (I kept that one). The rest is gold and wood. Does she have a copyright on gold stripes on wood objects?
I won't even get into a philosophical debate about what is copying, what is inspiration, what can be owned, what cannot be owned. There's a lot of it out there. I will say that I don't work with ceramic, I don't work with cream, I don't sell this stuff on Etsy or the internet.
I'm am truly sorry to have bummed her out and that this is such a big deal to you. There are a lot of copy cats it turns out; I am not the only one. I think it's too bad that the compliment isn't being paid attention too here. Clearly the internet loves her stuff. It's awesome. I am in no way a threat to her art, her business, or her livelihood.
I hope that all of your assumptions and snarky frothiness haven't made her feel worse than she needs to.
Sarah,
To be perfectly clear, I'm not upset, and I don't think your trays are necessarily rip-offs. In fact, I think they're much different than the original. Susan has a number of imitators with shops, and some of them are far more direct than your homage. She's flattered, but she ignores them.
What hurt her was the idea that someone would make their own version and then declare "I Stole This… Now I want to have an Etsy shop solely dedicated to my rip-off painted trays." And the Etsy shop declares "The tray empire will begin SOON."
It's not what you're making that upset her; it was your giddiness at idea of selling a self-described "rip-off." By posting that link on her Design Sponge post (thus piggybacking on her publicity), she felt like you were rubbing her face in it, because you knew she'd see it.
Susan is at the ceramics studio rolling out Zag Trays right now, and doesn't know I'm posting these comments. But she called me 10 minutes ago because she was still thinking about your post.
I really don't want to discourage you from doing anything… By all means keep building the tray empire. Use cream, use ceramic, go wild. That's not my point. My point is: you may want to be more mindful when posting or linking something that prompted you to ask yourself "is that okay? … That would be wrong, right?"
Ben
My thoughts as a completely objective observer... I saw the photo of the tray on DesignSponge and my immediate thought was "$98???? I could make that for about $6!" So when a couple people (such as Sarah) posted their versions, I clicked the links, which is how I got here. They confirmed that, yes, this is an easy project that can be done cheaply.
I interpreted Sarah's comment about selling this on Etsy as being facetious. But even if she wasn't entirely joking, I can understand why: if one person is selling this for $98 and others can undercut the price significantly and still make a profit, it should be expected that people WILL do that. That's how the free market works. It's not even an original concept. Sorry if you don't like the glee with which someone might realize the potential to profit from a variation on someone else's idea, Ben, but perhaps the solution is for your wife to reconsider her own pricing. If she doesn't want to adjust her pricing, maybe she should consider keeping her products as far from DIY sites as possible to avoid the inevitable copying that happens.
Ben,
When I wrote that post this summer I had a readership of about 35, all good friends, who are familiar with my writing style. I find it hilarious to think of a person writing, "I Stole This… Now I want to have an Etsy shop solely dedicated to my rip-off painted trays." and "The tray empire will begin SOON" seriously. I’m sorry the humor escaped you.
I have no tray empire. THAT’S THE JOKE. I have 3 wood and gold trays that aren’t selling in a tiny local store. I have a tiny readership and an Etsy shop that when I made it I expected zero people to see.
If it was my intention to have a tray empire, I would have had trays for sale when I posted my comment on Design Sponge (if I had thought that anyone would click through to my Etsy shop, which I didn’t, which frankly I forget exists). To want to piggyback on someone else’s publicity you need a goal, which I don’t.
This morning I was so excited to see that not only had Grace featured your wife’s excellent tray but that your wife was making more. Hooray! I quickly said what I said and linked to one post that I wrote months ago, before I had an Etsy shop, before I had made anything else, before I had put them in my friends store. I didn’t think about it, much less want to rub anyone’s face in anything. In what? That I love the tray? That I am ridiculously and sarcastically calling for a Tray Empire? Much less did I think anyone would click through my entire blog and connect dots to creat a distorted narrative of my intentions.
However, now that you mention it, welcome to the internet. That’s what people do in Comments sections. I’m sure that’s not surprising to you as you seem internet-savvy. Why it’s offensive to you is a bit confusing, but okay. I feel compelled to point out that the comments are moderated and that Grace approved of mine and then commented on it. So, I’m not crazy in having posted it.
“You may want to be more mindful when posting or linking something that prompted you to ask yourself "is that okay? … That would be wrong, right?" - This is the entire point! I was trying to have a conversation that like, a million people are wondering about and engaging in on Etsy! This is not a unique problem! I’m sorry that my language was completely, um, honest. I RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS A DUBIOUS ETHICAL DILEMMA. That’s why I wrestled with it, that’s why there aren’t any trays in my Etsy shop, that’s why I wrote what I wrote.
I’m super glad to have my question clarified and to hear that you don’t think I am actually ripping her off and that she wouldn’t mind if I sold my trays on Etsy. I think I will. I’ll just try not to link to them on the internet.
It’s too bad she’s not reading these comments. They might assuage some of whatever is making her call you thinking about my silly little post.
Sara - Thanks for your note! I love yours! I love the idea of doing all kinds of colors and patterns and good God I just love trays :) I don't know if you saw (somewhere on this blog) but I also went crazy on other stuff, including coasters. I didn't post the coasters unfortunately. I bought cheapo cork round ones at Michael's. I'll check in with your blog to see if you do anything else!
Cute trays! In terms of pricing, I definitely think they're different. The originals are hand made ceramics by a skilled craftsman with gold leafing (i.e, actual gold). So I see why it's in the $98 range. But if someone wants to take the idea and create the look DIY with paint and inexpensive trays from a store, that's definitely a different execution of the same design idea! I love making my own crafts too (as well as shopping at stores and designers for more sophisticated pieces).
Jen,
I fully understand that copying will happen. Competition is a good thing. But being a jerk about it is not a good thing. Sarah was not being facetious about selling her version; check Small Victory's Facebook page.
About the pricing, let me make two points. First, spray painting a discount plate is much different than hand-building and glazing ceramic and then meticulously applying and sealing gold leaf. There's a place for both, but in terms of labor and end result, they're just categorically different. The people who are buying $98 Zag Trays today would not have looked twice at a spray painted plate, which is why Susan doesn't worry about things that look vaguely similar.
Second, Susan works on UIAS full time. If you're a hobbyist, it's easy to make a few pieces and sell them on your Etsy store for less than what Susan charges. That's great, and that's how Susan got her start! And it's fine to keep doing that forever, as long as you have another job or means of support. However, if you want to quit your job and make stuff full time, you realize that no one can pay rent by spray painting plates for $6. Eventually you have to figure out how to make your practice sustainable, and I'm proud of Susan for doing just that.
If you can undercut Susan on price, I say go for it. And if you don't have any ideas of your own, feel free to use hers. Just don't be a jerk about it.
Ben
How on earth is this being a jerk: "So like really, I'm thinking about selling these trays I've made on etsy. What are the legal/ethical/moral perimeters here?"
Also, I think her price is awesome and I would pay it if I felt like buying it anymore. If I were actually trying to have a business I might care about all this other pricing stuff conversation, but I'm not. I wasn't trying to undercut anyone. I'M NOT SELLING ANY TRAYS ON ETSY. Yet.
Or wait, were you referring to this? "1. Small Victories has an Etsy shop! Let the tray empire begin (trays to come soon)! 2. Matthew Latkiewicz is selling his new nerd product there just in time for the holidays. Whew!"
No really, tell me where I am being a jerk on Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Small-Victories/198126900261954
Sarah,
If someone posted enthusiastically about making a "rip-off" version of Reading Notes and then FB'd "no seriously guys, I'm gonna sell them, what are the ethical and legal ramifications of making these notebooks," I'd think they were jerks. On your behalf.
Anyway, sounds like I just didn't get your "joke." No real harm done. But just know that you came off as very aggro, and upset the very person you were trying to compliment! So "welcome to the internet," where sarcasm is always the best option.
Susan and I will sleep easy tonight, and leave the "dubious ethical dilemmas" to other people. Sounds like a real hassle.
Ben
Amazing. Of course, the Reading Notes are a "rip off" of Field Notes. The real jerks are the ones who don't address what they are doing, don't question it, don't pose it as a dillemma or otherwise care.
The sarcasm started with your initial comment, which maybe you should read again before you aggressively try to make other people feel tiny and maliciously harmful. Sleep well. I won't. I hate conflict, never meant to cause any but felt the need to respond to it when it came to me, and am truly sorry to have hurt your wife's feelings.
Sarah,
Seriously, do not sweat it. You and I are cool. My first comment was sincere and based on my assumption that you were trying to make this a real business. Most of my friends sell stuff online in one way or another, so I've seen what works and what doesn't. I would honestly give my best friend the same advice.
Best of luck and no hard feelings,
Ben
Hi Sarah and Ben,
I must say, I didn't expect to see such a spirited conversation happening below this post, but it was certainly an entertaining read! I work at a store that sells high-end furniture and design objects (sometimes handmade by local artists) so I fully comprehend the debate here.
What I would like to point out to Ben is that any customer who buys a cheaply painted tray is not your wife's customer! Nobody who was seriously considering purchasing a beautiful ceramic tray with gold leaf for $98 would ever think to themselves "Hmmm, maybe I'll buy this instead..." upon seeing a spray-painted version. Anyone who buys a cheap knock-off will not be a lost sale for Up in The Air Somewhere.
What I would like to point out to Sarah is although selling (or just blogging about) a couple of painted trays might seem like nothing to you, posting about your DIY efforts in that forum probably made Ben and his wife feel like knockoffs of this work are more common than they actually are. As we should all know, over-saturating the market with cheap knockoffs devalues the original piece, so it must have seemed scary to see a post about a DIY version in the top of the comments section. For the record, I don't think that will actually happen in this case... unless Anthropologie gets their hands on factory-made knockoffs for their stores! hehe
I wish Ben's wife much success (her tray is on my Xmas "Wish List"), and I wish Sarah more spirited (though hopefully less controversial) DIY adventures.